Monday, January 10, 2011

2nd person view?

Whilst the first person and third person (over the shoulder) views are popular in games, are there any games that use a second person view? And what would a second person view be?

From gaming Albort
  • Second person:

    The grammatical category of forms that designate the person addressed. Examples of forms in the second person include English pronouns such as you and verb forms such as Spanish hablas "you speak."

    From: http://www.answers.com/topic/second-person

    By this definition, a second-person perspective game would be any game in which the player character is referred to as "you". For example, text-based games where dialogue reads as follows: "You pick up the stone and examine it carefully. You throw the stone at a baby. You derive much amusement from the baby's incessant whining."

    Arda Xi : So interactive fiction and I suppose any games in which you look straight at your character like someone talking to you in the first person.
    Mana : Yeah, pretty much.
    Albort : So something along the lines of Monkey Island?
    Christian : No. This is seriously wrong. By this definition EVERY game has a second-person perspective. Seeing the words "You pick up a shotgun", typing "shoot imp", and seeing "You shot the imp dead." is the same exact thing as running over a shotgun in Doom and shooting the nearest imp in the face. The only difference is that instead of words, Doom uses fancy graphics. In the end, they communicate the same message to YOU the player: "You killed the imp."
    Mana : @Christian: Sorry, maybe it's because I'm tired, but I fail to see how this concept is "seriously wrong". In a first-person perspective game, we see the action directly through the eyes of a character. In a second-person perspective game, the action is seen from an entity talking about "you", not quite assuming to be you but rather some detached narrator. In a third-person perspective game, the entity does nothing describe the actions of characters, never once referring to "you" the player directly.
    Mechko : Second person would be a game in which you are in focus and the point of focus is someone else who has an active role. The difference between this and third person is that third person has a non-active 'spectator' (usually hovering above and behind your shoulder) watching on.
    Christian : @Mana: Can you please define more clearly what you mean by "entity"?
    Christian : @Mana: Every action you do in the game is seen by the game engine "entity". It's job is to tell YOU what the results were. It can tell you either by means of words or graphics. In other words, the player's character is ALWAYS referred to as "you", since you are the one directing him. For example, when you die in Resident Evil 4, it says in big, red letters onscreen "You are Dead!" Does this make Resi 4 a second-person game?
    Mana : @Christian: tbh I don't really believe in what I've argued anymore; it's pretty flawed. You win this argument, I guess. I prefer the explanation given by sgnewson, Mechko and candrews.
    From Mana
  • It is impossible to have a second person view in a game. Strictly speaking, we are talking about camera positions.

    There are only two scenarios possible. Either attach the camera directly to the front of a game character's face, or position the camera anywhere else in the game world.

    There are no other possibilities.

    EDIT:

    alt text

    This is NOT a second person game.

    EDIT:

    alt text

    This is also NOT a second person game.

    Arda Xi : You can attach the camera directly in front of the character, aimed at their face, that'd be second-person.
    Kip : second person could mean you see through the eyes of the opponent. imagine a punch-out style game, where you controlled the character who was facing you, and you had to anticipate his moves based on where his arms were, or based on how he (and necessarily the camera) moved
    Christian : @Kip Yeah, it could mean that. But it doesn't, because a second person view is impossible. You are still talking about seeing the action from a third person view. The camera in your hypothetical game is simply in front of your opponent. It doesn't matter if the enemy is there or not, it is still a third person game.
    Grace Note : It's not impossible, it's simply not constant. Being "second person" is an ephemeral state. It's basically what the "third person" becomes when the camera is the focal point of the "first person". Does it make the *game* second person? No. But can the perspective, during this relationship, be considered second person? Very much so. It's still a first person or third person game overall, but there exists the ability to have a second person view.
    Christian : @Grace Note The perspective can much much more easily be considered first person.
    Kip : the first person is the one doing the action. the second person is the one receiving the action. the third person is the one observing the action. the turtles in time shredder battle is second person because you are seeing from the second person's perspective.
    Christian : @Kip Making up wrong definitions for these terms is a sure way to confuse yourself. The person is ALWAYS the one doing the action. Whether it's first or third depends on where the camera is that SHOWS the action.
    Kip : @Christian: They call Doom a first-person game because you have the point of view of the character you control. He is an "I" from the player's perspective, not a "him". I didn't make that up; I'm just continuing the literary analogy. In 2nd person he would be a "you", i.e. the actions of your character would be directed at the player. Even if you don't agree that the Battletoads and Turtles In Time boss battles constitute 2nd person, I don't see how you can say second person is *impossible*.
    Christian : @Kip As far as language is concerned, person indicates who the subject of the verb is, whether it be the speaker himself, the person being addressed, or someone else altogether. You are confusing the ideas of subject and direct object. And you are also confusing games for books. The rules for first, second, third person are clear and simple in language. They are equally as simple in games, but they are not the same.
    acidzombie24 : dude i upvoted you before you were downvoted. Who is downvoting all these answers! its kind of annoying. -edit- especially since multiple retarded answers and or completely wrong (i wont say which) are being upvoted.
    From Christian
  • I guess as far as camera positions go Christian is correct, but Mana is also correct. Nobody here is "seriously wrong"

    Lotus Notes : How is this an answer?
    Earlz : A better question is how is this the accepted answer
    Kip : this really should have been a comment, not an answer
  • A long time ago, I played a fighter-jet game where the F9, F10 and F11 keys were mapped to the First, Second and Third person perspectives. F9 put me inside the cockpit of the fighterjet, F11 put me just above and outside my jet, and F10 put me in the cockpit of whatever enemy jet I had targeted at the time.

    So I would say that any game where you can get the perspective of your 'enemies' is a game that gives you a second person view.

    Christian : This is not a second person view. If a friend walked into the room and saw you playing the game, after having just pressed F10, your friend would instantly understand that the game was in first person from the point of view of the enemy pilot. If you started explaining to him that he was wrong, and you were actually playing a second person game, you might just get slapped.
    From sgnewson
  • I don't believe that any of the answers given so far are technically right, though Christian is technically the closest while saying that the the "person" is in reference to the camera and not any grammatical pronouns in the game's story. He's a little wrong in saying that a second person game isn't possible though - a "2nd person" game would be one in which the player's character is only ever viewed from other people's perspectives - thinking about this, it becomes pretty obvious why few or none games use 2nd person - constantly operating your own character through the eyes of others could get a little hairy and I'm not sure it would be the most user-friendly game.

    Christian : In Super Mario 64 all your actions were viewed through the cloud turtle Lakitu. You could even directly control Lakitu to move the camera around Mario! Was Super Mario 64 a second person game?
    Arda Xi : No, Lakitu was a third person, not a second person.
    From candrews
  • 2nd Person Shooter:

    In this take on the 2nd Person Perspective, you control yourself through the eyes of the bot, but you do not control the bot. Your eyes have effectively been switched. Naturally this makes action difficult when you aren't within the bot's field of view; thus both you and the bot (or other player) will need to work together, to combat each other.

    http://www.selectparks.net/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=284

    From PeterT
  • Since having a true "second-person" experience is nigh impossible, the game The Experiment (Or eXperience 112) probably comes this closest. In this game, you control surveillance cameras and lights to direct the main character what you want them to do. In this sense, the main character is sort of like your real entity in the game, but you watch them at the same time. It's a strange experience.

    From Jeffrey
  • I sometimes consider over the shoulder or directly above the head as second person view. Like part of you but not where you eyes are. But really i only heard of first person and third. Theres really no such thing as 2nd person because another person is classified as a 3rd person. The are other views like overworld (view), iso, etc.

    To clarify. Resident Evil is something i could call 2nd person view as its over your shoulder, starfox 64 camera doesnt change and is pretty much attached to you so i wouldnt object if someone called it 2nd person but mario, splinter cell or a camera pointing at you would be 3rd person.

    acidzombie24 : downvote without a comment *sigh*
    Christian : I'll comment! I've heard some smart dudes consider some over the shoulder games as first person before, but I think calling it second person is stretching it a little too far. But I think you're onto something when you say "Theres [sic] really no such thing as 2nd person"!
    acidzombie24 : @Christian: AFAIK if it isnt you then its called 3rd person/party/whatever. So i really think there is no such thing. I do think this answer (linked) is the loses. Saying text games talking about `you` as a 2nd person view. http://gaming.stackexchange.com/questions/2538/2nd-person-view/2540#2540 but otherwise i think theres no such thing. I disagree about over the shoulder being first person (its 3rd since it isnt you). I dont know why i was downvoted but i was just saying i wouldnt outright say over the shoulder isnt 2nd person if someone called it that.
  • Would a game like Black & White, where you indirectly control the main protagonist be a second person game?

    You are seeing the game world through a simulation of a god-like view, but the point is to influence/train your pet, the main protagonist, to do what you would do directly yourself in a first/third person view? So the animal becomes a proxy for yourself that you view and influence but don't actually control?

    Although by this argument a wargame simulation (not RTS, but the sort where you'd give your army a particular formation and strategy, and then let them get on with it) or the football management games (eg the Championship Manager franchise, where you pick a team, set their tactics and then set the match going just getting flash updates on match events) could also be second person.

    Christian : But the main protagonist in Black and White is none other than you, who are represented by your disembodied hand floating through the land. There are other such games where all you see of yourself are your hands. They tend to be first person shooters. Black and White is a first person game.
    From GAThrawn
  • Second person could mean you see through the eyes of the antagonist, and the player you control performs actions at the camera. I've seen this used, though rarely, in boss battles. For an entire game it would be very difficult, since your opponent keeps changing.

    TMNT:Turtles In Time had a boss battle where you saw the scene through the eyes of Shredder, and to kill him you had to throw foot soldiers at the screen (i.e. at Shredder) to kill him. Here's a video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcB_C8x65sY

    Battletoads had a similar boss battle, at the end of the very first level. See here, starting at 1:48: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHgVR0Ykkcc

    In the opening cut scene for some of the battles in The Legend Of Zelda: Ocarina Of Time you briefly see through the eyes of the boss, though you don't have control of Link at the time. (Water Temple and Deku Tree bosses are like that.)

    Grace Note : Very first boss in Battletoads, to be specific.
    Kip : @GraceNote: that explains why i remember it, since i never really got farther than the hoverbike level (i think it was the 3rd one)
    Grace Note : Yes, the third one was the one with hoverbikes.
    Christian : Neither Turtles in Time or Battletoads are second person games. They are played from the third person view at all times. They may do clever things with the graphics on screen to make it look like you're seeing things from the enemy's point of view, and fool you into saying silly things like 'second person', but the camera never changes. The only thing that has is the enemy's location!
    From Kip

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